Comments on: Access to education in Ireland for non-Catholics http://www.tomrafteryit.net/access-to-education-in-ireland-for-non-catholics/ Tom Raftery, social media consultant, speaker, blogger and podcaster Fri, 29 Aug 2008 17:57:49 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Siobhan Liabotis http://www.tomrafteryit.net/access-to-education-in-ireland-for-non-catholics/#comment-117589 Siobhan Liabotis Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:11:13 +0000 http://www.tomrafteryit.net/access-to-education-in-ireland-for-non-catholics/#comment-117589 Wow, my parents were born in Ireland, i live in Canada now and am a teacher and I'm shocked to also see the issues of church and state being so strong in the 21st century! I can only hope that the Department of Education in Ireland gets into the modern age and out of the archaic age! Siobhan Wow, my parents were born in Ireland, i live in Canada now and am a teacher and I’m shocked to also see the issues of church and state being so strong in the 21st century!

I can only hope that the Department of Education in Ireland gets into the modern age and out of the archaic age! Siobhan

]]> By: Luiz Monografia Alpha http://www.tomrafteryit.net/access-to-education-in-ireland-for-non-catholics/#comment-115943 Luiz Monografia Alpha Sun, 06 Apr 2008 17:52:56 +0000 http://www.tomrafteryit.net/access-to-education-in-ireland-for-non-catholics/#comment-115943 Oh my God, it's unaceptable tbat, in the XXI century, inside a country that grows economically at significant rates and tends to increase its participation into the EU, educational segregation occurs due to religious matters. To me, the role of religion in educational process is very different than the role of religious entities. In several countries, including Brazil, many religious entities provide a very good private education, based in the laicism of our culture. However, many might say that in Ireland religious culture is stronger, and so, it is a door for the prejudice (i couldn't think in any better word). But this argumentation is poor, cause we can cite the example of Spain, where the best private education is provided by religious entities, but is not lacked to agnostics, protestants or muslims. In fact, what is happening in Ireland, and this post really shocked me, only is detrimental to the country, in economical, social, international and moral aspects. Oh my God, it’s unaceptable tbat, in the XXI century, inside a country that grows economically at significant rates and tends to increase its participation into the EU, educational segregation occurs due to religious matters.

To me, the role of religion in educational process is very different than the role of religious entities. In several countries, including Brazil, many religious entities provide a very good private education, based in the laicism of our culture.

However, many might say that in Ireland religious culture is stronger, and so, it is a door for the prejudice (i couldn’t think in any better word). But this argumentation is poor, cause we can cite the example of Spain, where the best private education is provided by religious entities, but is not lacked to agnostics, protestants or muslims.

In fact, what is happening in Ireland, and this post really shocked me, only is detrimental to the country, in economical, social, international and moral aspects.

]]> By: Mary Martin http://www.tomrafteryit.net/access-to-education-in-ireland-for-non-catholics/#comment-114887 Mary Martin Sun, 02 Mar 2008 14:29:12 +0000 http://www.tomrafteryit.net/access-to-education-in-ireland-for-non-catholics/#comment-114887 Just a few comments on the previous comments. Firstly as a Hibernia graduate myself I have to say that Hibernia also have a Religion Module. If they didn't we would be unable to get a job in a Catholic school (i.e. the majority of schools) in this country. Secondly schools are exempt from the Equality Employment legislation. In other words, a Catholic school is legally entitled to refuse to employ someone on the grounds that their religion would be at odd with the ethos of their school. Could this be stretched to cover someones life style e.g. an openly gay person or a lone parent? As a teacher I have to play along with this even though I do not agree with it. I came across this site as I was brousing the net. I am hoping to do a postgraduate on this very topic so please keep the comments coming! Just a few comments on the previous comments. Firstly as a Hibernia graduate myself I have to say that Hibernia also have a Religion Module. If they didn’t we would be unable to get a job in a Catholic school (i.e. the majority of schools) in this country. Secondly schools are exempt from the Equality Employment legislation. In other words, a Catholic school is legally entitled to refuse to employ someone on the grounds that their religion would be at odd with the ethos of their school. Could this be stretched to cover someones life style e.g. an openly gay person or a lone parent? As a teacher I have to play along with this even though I do not agree with it. I came across this site as I was brousing the net. I am hoping to do a postgraduate on this very topic so please keep the comments coming!

]]> By: college education http://www.tomrafteryit.net/access-to-education-in-ireland-for-non-catholics/#comment-114785 college education Tue, 26 Feb 2008 13:56:44 +0000 http://www.tomrafteryit.net/access-to-education-in-ireland-for-non-catholics/#comment-114785 Back during times of the foundation of the state I think it was hard to tell where the state stopped and the church began. The Church may have stepped in but I’m sure they were more than willing …. what an amazing position of power over the culture for the church to assume. It was really another form of colonialism. I went to a church school too and to this day I really wish I hadnt - my early experience would have been totally different but none of us had a choice. Still I think Ireland is not unique here. Even in England to this day, certainly around where I used to live in London all the good schools are church run and state run schools seems to be at the back of the pack. I’m not sure though I follow your logic that the church should have no obligation to teach non catholics. The teachers maybe employed by the school but if I am not mistaken, they are paid for and regulated by the Dept of <a href="http://www.education-reference.org" title="education">education</a>. So if the public money is going in to these church schools then I think they should have an obligation to serve the wider community. Cheers James Back during times of the foundation of the state I think it was hard to tell where the state stopped and the church began. The Church may have stepped in but I’m sure they were more than willing …. what an amazing position of power over the culture for the church to assume. It was really another form of colonialism. I went to a church school too and to this day I really wish I hadnt - my early experience would have been totally different but none of us had a choice. Still I think Ireland is not unique here. Even in England to this day, certainly around where I used to live in London all the good schools are church run and state run schools seems to be at the back of the pack.

I’m not sure though I follow your logic that the church should have no obligation to teach non catholics. The teachers maybe employed by the school but if I am not mistaken, they are paid for and regulated by the Dept of education. So if the public money is going in to these church schools then I think they should have an obligation to serve the wider community.

Cheers
James

]]> By: Immaculate One http://www.tomrafteryit.net/access-to-education-in-ireland-for-non-catholics/#comment-112925 Immaculate One Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:28:55 +0000 http://www.tomrafteryit.net/access-to-education-in-ireland-for-non-catholics/#comment-112925 I've been thinking about this question for a while, since the Teaching Council meeting a few weeks ago. At present, all the Primary Teaching Training Colleges (Mary I, St. Pats, Marino, Froebel) in Ireland are all denominational and Catholic/CoI. What if a member of the Muslim or Jewish or Hindu (or other) wanted to become a primary teacher straight out of second level? They would be forced to go to one of the schools above. Mary won't be able to keep them out because if they've been educated here, they'll have the Irish (you need to have Honours Irish at Leaving Cert). Why should they be subjected to the Catholic/CoI ethos of these institutions when all they are trying to do is train to be a teacher? I'm guessing they would win a case in the European Court of Human Rights on this issue. Also, related to this is the fact that Mary is trying to get the VEC to make a new multi-denominational model for primary schools. Who does she think will be able to teach in these schools since the teacher training colleges here don't provide instruction on world religions. Well, no, they do actually provide a few lectures on them which are delivered via a priest!! If one suggests the Hibernia College, it is also not an equal option. Hibernia is an 18month post-grad course so our student (Let's call her Fatima) would have to do a 4 year degree first, then apply to do the Hibernia. Hibernia is an online course and is far dearer than MaryI/StPats/Marino route. Also, it's a lot harder to get a job if you are a Hibernia grad and there is resentment by some teachers about them. Her other option would be to go abroad to teacher training college, but again, why should she have to? I’ve been thinking about this question for a while, since the Teaching Council meeting a few weeks ago.

At present, all the Primary Teaching Training Colleges (Mary I, St. Pats, Marino, Froebel) in Ireland are all denominational and Catholic/CoI. What if a member of the Muslim or Jewish or Hindu (or other) wanted to become a primary teacher straight out of second level? They would be forced to go to one of the schools above. Mary won’t be able to keep them out because if they’ve been educated here, they’ll have the Irish (you need to have Honours Irish at Leaving Cert).

Why should they be subjected to the Catholic/CoI ethos of these institutions when all they are trying to do is train to be a teacher? I’m guessing they would win a case in the European Court of Human Rights on this issue.

Also, related to this is the fact that Mary is trying to get the VEC to make a new multi-denominational model for primary schools. Who does she think will be able to teach in these schools since the teacher training colleges here don’t provide instruction on world religions. Well, no, they do actually provide a few lectures on them which are delivered via a priest!!

If one suggests the Hibernia College, it is also not an equal option.

Hibernia is an 18month post-grad course so our student (Let’s call her Fatima) would have to do a 4 year degree first, then apply to do the Hibernia. Hibernia is an online course and is far dearer than MaryI/StPats/Marino route. Also, it’s a lot harder to get a job if you are a Hibernia grad and there is resentment by some teachers about them. Her other option would be to go abroad to teacher training college, but again, why should she have to?

]]> By: steve white http://www.tomrafteryit.net/access-to-education-in-ireland-for-non-catholics/#comment-110930 steve white Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:18:26 +0000 http://www.tomrafteryit.net/access-to-education-in-ireland-for-non-catholics/#comment-110930 the government and the church colluded in this, as evidenced by recent speeches the catholic church doesn't think secularist have morals or values, thus they wouldn't allow THEIR children to educated by them, education is a means of control its no altruistic accident. the government and the church colluded in this, as evidenced by recent speeches the catholic church doesn’t think secularist have morals or values, thus they wouldn’t allow THEIR children to educated by them, education is a means of control its no altruistic accident.

]]> By: James Farrar http://www.tomrafteryit.net/access-to-education-in-ireland-for-non-catholics/#comment-110682 James Farrar Sun, 16 Sep 2007 00:14:06 +0000 http://www.tomrafteryit.net/access-to-education-in-ireland-for-non-catholics/#comment-110682 Hi Tom Back during times of the foundation of the state I think it was hard to tell where the state stopped and the church began. The Church may have stepped in but I'm sure they were more than willing .... what an amazing position of power over the culture for the church to assume. It was really another form of colonialism. I went to a church school too and to this day I really wish I hadnt - my early experience would have been totally different but none of us had a choice. Still I think Ireland is not unique here. Even in England to this day, certainly around where I used to live in London all the good schools are church run and state run schools seems to be at the back of the pack. I'm not sure though I follow your logic that the church should have no obligation to teach non catholics. The teachers maybe employed by the school but if I am not mistaken, they are paid for and regulated by the Dept of Education. So if the public money is going in to these church schools then I think they should have an obligation to serve the wider community. Cheers James Hi Tom

Back during times of the foundation of the state I think it was hard to tell where the state stopped and the church began. The Church may have stepped in but I’m sure they were more than willing …. what an amazing position of power over the culture for the church to assume. It was really another form of colonialism. I went to a church school too and to this day I really wish I hadnt - my early experience would have been totally different but none of us had a choice. Still I think Ireland is not unique here. Even in England to this day, certainly around where I used to live in London all the good schools are church run and state run schools seems to be at the back of the pack.

I’m not sure though I follow your logic that the church should have no obligation to teach non catholics. The teachers maybe employed by the school but if I am not mistaken, they are paid for and regulated by the Dept of Education. So if the public money is going in to these church schools then I think they should have an obligation to serve the wider community.

Cheers
James

]]> By: Graham Gosling http://www.tomrafteryit.net/access-to-education-in-ireland-for-non-catholics/#comment-110601 Graham Gosling Wed, 12 Sep 2007 11:39:14 +0000 http://www.tomrafteryit.net/access-to-education-in-ireland-for-non-catholics/#comment-110601 This is something that we are currently having to face, having just started our four year old in a small school in the rural South-East (we are agnostics). No matter what ones religious background as parents, I do not believe that there is justification in an education system being provided by a religious body. Religion and eduction should be separate. If people wish to bring their children up in a religious family and instill those values on them, the education of that belief system should be their responsibility (wasn't that what Sunday School used to be about)? As for the state taking over responsibility, I think that's going to take a monumental effort by a lot of people to force the change. I fear that the majority of the populous, no matter what their thoughts on the matter, are too weak to challenge what they see as a sacred cow (pun intended) and would rather simply let traditions roll on. What a shame. This is something that we are currently having to face, having just started our four year old in a small school in the rural South-East (we are agnostics).

No matter what ones religious background as parents, I do not believe that there is justification in an education system being provided by a religious body. Religion and eduction should be separate.

If people wish to bring their children up in a religious family and instill those values on them, the education of that belief system should be their responsibility (wasn’t that what Sunday School used to be about)?

As for the state taking over responsibility, I think that’s going to take a monumental effort by a lot of people to force the change. I fear that the majority of the populous, no matter what their thoughts on the matter, are too weak to challenge what they see as a sacred cow (pun intended) and would rather simply let traditions roll on. What a shame.

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